Paul Schrader: ‘In the ’70s it wasn’t that the… | Little White Lies

Interviews

Paul Schrad­er: In the 70s it wasn’t that the films were bet­ter, it was the audiences’

15 Nov 2016

Words by Matt Thrift

Illustration of a man with glasses and a pensive expression against a background of swirling green and yellow shapes.
Illustration of a man with glasses and a pensive expression against a background of swirling green and yellow shapes.
The vet­er­an Hol­ly­wood mav­er­ick talks Dog Eat Dog, Scors­ese and the chal­lenges of mod­ern moviemaking.

He was a film crit­ic and stu­dent of Pauline Kael. He was the high­est paid screen­writer in Hol­ly­wood his­to­ry when he sold his script for The Yakuza in 1973. Two years lat­er he wrote Taxi Dri­ver, before mak­ing his direc­to­r­i­al debut with Blue Col­lar. He entered the 80s with three mas­ter­pieces in a row, and with more to come. He’s bat­tled stu­dios and pro­duc­ers over his right to final cut. He sur­vived work­ing with Lind­say Lohan. Now’s he’s back with his most styl­is­ti­cal­ly out­ré work in years. With Dog Eat Dog in cin­e­mas, we sat down for a chat with the liv­ing leg­end that is Paul Schrader.

LWLies: You found­ed your own cin­e­ma mag­a­zine, right?

Schrad­er: Well, there was one I did found, but I guess you’re talk­ing about a movie mag­a­zine called Cin­e­ma? Before I was the edi­tor, Cur­tis Han­son was the edi­tor, it was owned by Cur­tis’ uncle.

Crit­i­cism was some­thing of a move­ment back then, with inter­nal move­ments of its own.

I was writ­ing for the LA Free Press, which was a rad­i­cal pub­li­ca­tion, alter­na­tive press of about 100,000 cir­cu­la­tion. We were part of the move­ment, and film crit­ics were a part of that move­ment too. It seems strange now. Through some odd serendip­i­ty or weird twist of fate, I got inter­est­ed in intel­lec­tu­al movies when I was at col­lege, in the sem­i­nary. I got inter­est­ed in Bergman. I couldn’t see movies in Grand Rapids because they didn’t have the­atres. So I went over the sum­mer to Colum­bia Uni­ver­si­ty and took some cours­es, just so I could see films, and then by hap­pen­stance I was in a bar one night with some­one and they knew Pauline Kael. We end­ed up hav­ing din­ner with her and one thing led to anoth­er. I was a sem­i­nar­i­an at the time, and she said to me, You don’t wan­na be a min­is­ter, you wan­na be a film crit­ic!” She got me into UCLA and got me the job at the Free Press.

Was she a big influ­ence on your writ­ing in the beginning?

She cast a long shad­ow. She had a num­ber of acolytes – Paulettes’ – but her style was pret­ty inim­itable. Of course I was affect­ed by it, though. One of the rea­sons she had pow­er at that time was that she had these con­nec­tions. I remem­ber her call­ing up and say­ing that we have to get behind La Chi­noise. So not only did she write a review, but sev­en or eight oth­er reviews would get writ­ten. But then, Godard was the guy you went to the bar­ri­cades for.

It’s hard to imag­ine a film like that get­ting made today.

Peo­ple talk about the Gold­en Age’ of Hol­ly­wood in the late 60s and ear­ly 70s. It wasn’t that the films were bet­ter or the film­mak­ers were bet­ter, it was the audi­ences that were bet­ter. It was a time of social stress and audi­ences turned to artists for answers. What do you think about women’s rights? What do you think about the war? The moment that a soci­ety turns to artists for answers, great art will emerge. It’s just that sim­ple. It just hap­pens. Back then, movies were at the cen­tre of the cul­tur­al con­ver­sa­tion. Bon­nie and Clyde was smack in the cen­tre, so was The God­fa­ther. Now today, a great num­ber of younger peo­ple, my chil­dren for exam­ple, do not think that movies are impor­tant. When audi­ences don’t think movies are impor­tant, it’s very hard to make impor­tant movies. That’s the difference.

How has crit­i­cism changed since then?

Crit­i­cism has become democ­ra­tised, because of the inter­net. Every­body is a crit­ic. Of course, nobody can make a liv­ing at it. There is a lot of good writ­ing out there, but there is a ques­tion of whether it’s bet­ter or worse. Jonathan Rosen­baum was asked about this recent­ly, and he said that he thought it was bet­ter, because even though he has a small­er audi­ence than he did when he was work­ing for the Chica­go Read­er, the audi­ence he does have is real­ly inter­est­ed in what he has to say.

How do you think the way movies are looked at has changed over the years, com­pared to what you were doing?

I was doing two things. I was writ­ing some pop­u­lar crit­i­cism that addressed the social sit­u­a­tion, but on the oth­er hand I was inter­est­ed in what I saw as a cer­tain type of style, a spir­i­tu­al style in films. That was an entire­ly dif­fer­ent read­ing of films, look­ing at them pure­ly as a styl­is­tic exer­cise, not as social con­tent. That wasn’t some­thing that Pauline was inter­est­ed in.

Did this inter­est in spir­i­tu­al­i­ty in cin­e­ma, what became Tran­scen­den­tal Style emerge from a posi­tion of belief?

When I grad­u­at­ed from the sem­i­nary and start­ed to get inter­est­ed in movies, I began to see bridges. I was look­ing around and couldn’t find any­one else writ­ing in this area. I felt I was too young to write the book, but I knew that if I wait­ed anoth­er year I would nev­er write it, because you had to spend a year writ­ing it for free. I had this year or two where I could still work for noth­ing before life inter­vened and I actu­al­ly had to start mak­ing some mon­ey. So I wrote it pre­ma­ture­ly, but now I’ve returned to it. The last cou­ple of years I’ve been research­ing a long piece called Rethink­ing Tran­scen­den­tal Style’, which cov­ers the 45 years since that book was pub­lished, from Tarkovsky to the present. It’s all about Slow Cin­e­ma and the use of bore­dom as an aes­thet­ic tool. That’ll be pub­lished next year.

Which con­tem­po­rary film­mak­ers do you think come clos­est to real­is­ing that pin­prick of transcendentalism?

It struck me that there were three direc­tions that this kind of qui­et cin­e­ma was mov­ing. Once it broke free from Tarkovsky and moved out of the the­atre, it start­ed mov­ing towards where it was more com­fort­able, which was the art gallery – or in some cas­es the closed-cir­cuit cam­era, if you’re talk­ing about Wang Bing. There are still films that work in that tran­scen­den­tal style, but there are oth­er slow films that are real­ly gallery instal­la­tions. It’s very hard today too go to an art gallery and not see a movie.

Do you find a lot of Slow Cin­e­ma can be quite self-con­scious­ly imi­ta­tive? Quite lit­er­al­ly if you take some­thing like Rey­gadas’ Silent Light.

But that’s a great film! It’s a won­der­ful­ly con­ceived remake of Ordet. Did you see Sta­tions of the Cross? That works very much in that way. So did Ida, the Pawel Paw­likows­ki film. Films can still work in that way.

Your next film sounds like you could be head­ing back in that direction?

I’m gonna try. I was hav­ing din­ner with Paw­likows­ki in New York, and as I was walk­ing back to my apart­ment, he got me think­ing. I said, Y’know, I think it’s time.’

How do you go about writ­ing a film like that. These films all work towards a par­tic­u­lar moment do you start with that and work back­wards, or…?

I showed [crit­ic and film­mak­er] Kent Jones the script, and the first end­ing I had was the Diary of a Coun­try Priest end­ing. He said, I thought you were gonna go the oth­er way, I thought you were gonna go with the Ordet end­ing.’ I said, Y’know, you’re right,’ so I went back and I changed it. Hahahhaaa!

We were dis­ap­point­ed you didn’t write Silence for Scors­ese, that book has you writ­ten all over it.

He caught me try­ing to take it. Years ago, after I made Mishi­ma, the peo­ple in Japan want­ed to make anoth­er film. I said, I’ll do Silence, Marty’s nev­er gonna make that movie,’ so we start­ed inves­ti­gat­ing how I could get the rights from him. And he caught me! I said, Mar­ty, You’re nev­er gonna make that film!’ He said, Yes I am! Yes I am!’

Do you think it’s pos­si­ble to make a seri­ous’ movie in the main­stream now, or are seri­ous­ness and com­mer­cial­ism incompatible?

What is the com­mer­cial cin­e­ma now? The­atri­cal is dying. The dis­tri­b­u­tion goal with Dog Eat Dog for exam­ple, in the US, is to be num­ber one on VOD on open­ing week­end. Every­thing else is used to achieve that goal. The­atri­cal, fes­ti­vals, every­thing. Because there is so much prod­uct out there, and so much is avail­able on-demand, peo­ple real­ly don’t have the time to research it. So they just look at the charts. They look at the top five and if there’s one they’re inter­est­ed in they see it. And then you make mon­ey. Just hav­ing it out there on VOD doesn’t make you mon­ey any more.

So the­atri­cal is just in ser­vice of on-demand?

For most films, yes. Obvi­ous­ly there are still parts of the world where the­atri­cal is still a pow­er­ful engine, but it’s becom­ing less so in the US.

You took five years between Adam Res­ur­rect­ed and The Canyons…

Was it? [Schrad­er takes out his phone]

Are you IMDb’ing yourself?

Yeah. Haha­haaa! Gee, it was! It didn’t feel that long. I think in that gap, I was gonna do a film with Brett called Bait. It was with with Span­ish mon­ey, but it fell through. I said to Brett, Y’know, peo­ple cen­sor your work, peo­ple cen­sor my work, the eco­nom­ics of film is chang­ing, why don’t you write it, I’ll direct it, we’ll pay for it and we’ll just make it?’ That was the chal­lenge of the film more than any­thing else. Can I do this? Can we pull this off? We did pull it off and we did make mon­ey, but I wouldn’t do it again.

You wouldn’t do the Kick­starter thing again?

It’s exhaust­ing, and that sit­u­a­tion was also exhaust­ing. But we got out of it and it all worked. I’m sure you read that article…

The New York Times one?

The most read arti­cle of the year!

A lot of your con­tem­po­raries, with obvi­ous excep­tions like Scors­ese, are strug­gling to get things made, but you’re get­ting into the trench­es and re-think­ing the way you approach production…

Every film is a strug­gle, except for cer­tain of my con­tem­po­raries. I mean, Steven [Spiel­berg] isn’t real­ly struggling…

Sure, but some­one like Wal­ter Hill?

I just ran into Wal­ter in Toron­to. First time I’d seen him in 35 years.

Did you see the film?

Hmmm. You know what’s strange about it? It’s an old script, it’s been around since the 70s, even know it sounds so con­tem­po­rary. What I was try­ing to do with Dog Eat Dog was make a film that feels like it was made right now, and Walter’s doesn’t. You have to see it for your­self. It has one oth­er prob­lem which is basi­cal­ly insur­mount­able, which is that Michelle Rodriguez is not a cred­i­ble man. She plays a man for the first 15 min­utes, but the walk isn’t right and you’re watch­ing a girl pre­tend­ing to be a man. It’s one thing to see a cross-dress­er, that’s fine, but you’re not sup­posed to this this is a cross-dress­er, you’re sup­posed to think it’s a man.

It throws polit­i­cal cor­rect­ness to the wolves?

Yeah, but who cares?

You might like